The 5 Phases Of Recovering From Betrayal Trauma

Like if you lose someone you love, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the loss, life will never be the same, but you don't question the relationship. You don't question your ability to trust. You don't question your sanity with betrayal you do. So that betrayal is a different type of trauma that needs a very different way to heal.

That was the first discovery. Welcome to the Thrive Her podcast. I'm your host, Amy Sanders. I'm a fitness and wellness pro, mom, step-mom, second wife, and master certified life coach.

I'm here to help you manage your mind so you can uncover the most potent version of yourself and create a thriving life you love. Hello, hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Thrive Her podcast. I'm your host, Amy Sanders, and I am so honored and excited to bring you the most amazing human.

She is making the biggest difference. And I love what she's doing. And as you guys know, on the Thrive Her podcast, we love talking about people who are thriving in their lives, as well as having amazing humans come to teach you because they are experts in different fields. And today I have Debbie Silber.

She is the founder of an amazing company, Post Betrayal Transformation Institute. She's a holistic psychologist. She's a health and mindset and personal development coach. She has been featured on like her list.

She's really long, including Fox, CBS, Dr. Oz Show. She's a TEDx speaker. Like I could literally keep going because she has been in the trenches doing so many amazing things all about betrayal trauma.

And I think this is such an important topic because whether we're talking about infidelity or even someone that just lied to you or someone that like hurt you at work, I mean, there are so many different forms of betrayal, but it does create trauma. That needs to be healed. And that is her specialty. So welcome to our podcast.

I am so honored to have you here. I'm so excited for our juicy conversation. So tell us a little bit more about you, Debbie. And thank you so much for being here.

Thank you. Looking forward to this conversation. So of course you don't study something like betrayal unless you have to, you know, this isn't like the kind of thing where you say, Oh, you know, that's an interesting topic. No, I'm in business 32 years, health mindset, personal development.

And I had a, I had a, I had a, I had a, I had a, I had a, I had a, I had a, I had a, I had a very painful betrayal from my family. I thought I did all I needed to do to heal from that. And then it happened a few years later. This time it was my husband.

That was the deal breaker. Anybody who's been through it, you know, you're shocked. You're devastated life as you've known. It is no longer.

So I got him out of the house. I looked at the two experiences thinking, well, what's similar to these two, you know, me, but what else? And I realized I, I didn't really take my needs seriously. You know, boundaries were always getting crossed and it struck me that if nothing changes, nothing changes.

You know, that's saying we've heard a million times. So here it was four kids, six dogs business that was doing pretty well. And I enrolled in a PhD program. I mean, I mean, I'm like, I don't even know how I was going to manage the time.

I didn't know how I was going to pay for it, but I knew I had to do something to heal. Like a book. Wasn't getting me out of this. Like I needed a PhD in it.

And then it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal and honestly, I studied it just to help myself. That was my intention. But I, I remember a moment where I said, I don't know how I can heal from this, but if I can, I'm taking everybody with me.

And the study was on betrayal. And then out of nowhere, we made three discoveries, which changed everything we know about betrayal. And it changed my health, my family, my work, my life. And so many other people's lives as well, as you've continued down this journey.

Okay. So tell us about what you discovered when you were doing your studies. Yeah. So the first, the first discovery was I had a feeling betrayal was a different type of trauma, but I didn't want to assume it was the same for all my study participants.

Like I had been through death of a loved one. I'd been through disease and I was like, betrayal feels different to me, but I didn't want to assume. So I asked everybody, if you've been through other types of traumas, does it feel different? And unanimously they said, it's so different.

And here's why, because it feels so intentional. We take it so personally. So the whole self get shattered, rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust. They're trashed.

Like if you lose someone you love, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the loss. Life will never be the same, but you don't question the relationship. You don't question your ability to trust. You don't question your sanity with betrayal.

You do. So that betrayal is a different type of trauma that needs a very different way to heal. That was the first discovery. Makes so much sense.

So you and I talked a little bit before this, and some people on the podcast know that I have experienced betrayal multiple times in my life as well. And that is the one thing that I have told people. It is so different. It's so different.

And you explain it beautifully, of course, but yeah, it's like someone, my sister died. Totally different. You know, my best friend died. Totally different.

So yeah, but that makes sense because your sense of self is completely shattered. Yeah. Right. Like you can.

You can grieve your beautiful sister and friend, right? But you're not looking at it like questioning. What were they doing while I was doing this? What were they thinking?

Did they really love me? Can I ever trust again? That's all betrayal. So that is a different type of trauma.

Yeah. That was the first discovery. You want me to go over the second one? Yes, I would love to.

Yeah. So the second discovery was that there's actually this collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to betrayal. It's known as post betrayal syndrome. We've had over 95,000 people or so take our post betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling.

And a few things about that. We've all been taught time heals all wounds. I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. There's a question.

Yeah. There's a question on the quiz that says, is there anything else you'd like to share? People write things like my betrayal happened 35 years ago. I'm unwilling to trust, you know, and, and this is, this is what happens.

So until then. Unless you intentionally and deliberately heal it, it will show up in your work, in your health, in your relationships. And every, every few months I pulled the stats from the quiz to see where people land. And I'm happy to share them.

If you want to hear them. I want to, I think everyone needs to hear them. Okay. Cause you said 95 said, no, I don't want you to share them.

We're moving right along. No. So did you, did you say that 95,000 people have taken this test by the way? Yeah.

In stats. Don't lie when you have numbers that large, right? Right. And as I share these, I want everybody to pay attention to these numbers and to these symptoms because they're staggering.

Okay. So out of, we have men, women, just about every country's represented 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. 94% have painful triggers.

And those triggers can take you right down. The most common physical symptoms, 71% have low energy, 68% have sleep issues, 63% have extreme fatigue. Your adrenals have tanked 47% have weight changes. So in the beginning, maybe you can't hold food down later on.

You're using food for comfort. You're emotionally eating 45% have a digestive issue. And that could be anything from Crohn's, IBS, diverticulitis, constipation, diarrhea, you name it. The most common mental symptoms.

78% are over. Overwhelmed 68% can't focus 62% can't concentrate. So imagine you can't concentrate. You have a gut issue.

You can't sleep. Now you have to raise your kids. Now you have to go to work. That's not even emotionally emotionally.

88% experience extreme sadness. 83% are very angry. And throughout a day, you could bounce back and forth between those two. You know how many times 79% are stressed.

Just a few more. 84% have an inability to trust. That one killed me. 84%.

That's why I wrote trust again, based on that one stat right there. 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. So they put the wall up 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how.

So the majority of the population is like, I want to, I want to, I'm stuck. I don't know how. Exactly. You know, it's even crazier about those numbers.

You didn't hear me say one thing, 20%, 30%, right? These numbers are super high. No, they're super high. They're all 95,000 people who've taken this test.

They're also not necessarily from a recent betrayal. So think about this. This could be from your parent who did something awful when you were a kid. This could be from the girlfriend, boyfriend who broke your heart in high school.

That person may not know care. Remember, they may not even be alive. And here we are walking around with symptoms. Years, if not decades later, because of something that happened years ago.

That's, that's the real issue. The good news is you can heal from all of it, which was the third discovery. So let's talk about that. Now that we've heard these like shattering stats, let's talk about how we can help.

Yeah. So for me, when the, when the, this next discovery showed up in like the geekiest way, I thought my head was going to fly right off my body. This was the most exciting thing. And what was discovered was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and so many people do, if we're going to fully heal.

And by fully heal, I mean those symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome, like I just shared to this completely rebuilt place called post-betrayal transformation, where you rebuild your life and yourself, you're going to move through five proven predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every stage. And we know what you need to do to move from one stage to the next. Healing is entirely predictable.

Happy to share the five stages. Well, that's next. Of course. So we want to hear the five stages.

Okay. Stage number one. Okay. So, I mean, this is all we do within the PBT Institute.

It's what all of our coaches are certified in. So here's a boil down version. Stage one, this is before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual.

What I saw with everybody, me too. Was a heavy lean. On the physical and the mental thinking and doing we're so good at that and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being, well, if a table only has two legs, it's easy for that table to topple over, right? That's us.

Stage two, shock, trauma, D-Day, discovery day. The scariest of all of the stages. Everybody remembers their D-Day, right? And we've created this psychological earthquake.

Life is now compartmentalized into before it happened and after it happened. Right? Absolutely. And this is the breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview.

So right here, you've ignited the stress response. You're now headed for every single stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease. Your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. This doesn't make any sense, right?

It's like you can't wrap your mind around this. And your worldview has just been shattered. Your worldview is your mental model. The rules.

The rules that govern you that prevent the chaos. It's okay to trust this person. Don't go there. These are the rules, right?

And in one earth-shattering moment or series of moments, every rule that you've been holding to be real and true is no longer. The bottom has bottomed out and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. This is terrifying, right? Oh, it's so terrifying.

Yeah. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You grab hold of anything or anyone in order to stay safe and stay alive.

And that's stage three. Survival instincts emerge. This is the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me, get out of my way.

How do I survive this? Where do I go? Who can I trust? Right?

Here's the trap though. Stage three is the stage we get stuck in. Most people land and stay here. And here's why.

And as I go through this, everyone will know exactly why they're here. Once you've figured out how to survive your experience, because it feels so much better than the shock. And trauma of where you just came from. We think it's good.

Like, okay. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go. We don't know there's a stage four or stage five. Transformation doesn't even begin until stage four.

But because we don't know there's yeah. Yeah. Because we don't know there's anywhere else to go. Exactly.

We plant roots here. We park here. Four things start to happen. The first thing is we start getting all these small self benefits.

We get to be right. We like being right. We get our story. We get sympathy from everyone we tell our story to.

We don't have to do the hard work of learning to trust again. Should I trust you? Can I trust you? I forget.

I'm not trusting anybody. So we plant deeper roots. And now that we're here longer than we should be, the mind starts doing things like maybe you're not that great. Maybe you deserved it.

Maybe this, maybe that. So we plant deeper roots now because these are the thoughts we're thinking. This is the energy we're putting out. Like energy attracts like energy.

So now we start calling circumstances and relationships and people towards us to confirm. Yep. This is where we belong. Right here is where we join that lame support group that keeps us stuck.

And we will actually sabotage our healing because we found our people right here. Right. Right here. We will.

We're healing. We will sabotage our healing because we're afraid to outgrow our betrayer. Right. It gets worse, but I'll get you out of here.

Yeah. Because. Oh, no. I have a question.

I think. Keep going. Yeah. Go ahead.

Oh, already. Okay. Maybe you're already going to say that. Or that's, that's why I'm like, do I keep going?

Is this why? So before we hit record her and I, we were talking about betrayal and stuff. Right. And you said, you know, we talked about stage three, which is what stage we're talking about right now.

Is this why people can get betrayed again in their life? Exactly. Is this what you're talking about? Because that also can happen, right?

Where it shows up. Again, with someone else and it's even worse. And then it's like, you know, all the other betrayers or betrayals they're having to re recover from. Is this why?

Cause you're just. Exactly. Because healing hasn't happened. Healing hasn't happened.

And because if nothing changes, nothing changes. So now think about this. We're here. Can you see my hands?

I'm going to show you something. You'll never forget this. Yes. So here we are.

We're in stage three. We're betrayed. Oh, it is so painful. We don't want this pain.

We just want it to go away. So we get back. We get back with that person or someone similar. And then it happens again because nothing changed.

Right. And we live a lifetime like this. What happens is when you're in stage three, the only thing you should do is move to stage four and then move to stage five. But what happens is if we're just so committed, this is why couples counseling very often doesn't work.

We have so many people coming into the PBT Institute with therapy trauma because that person, that counselor therapist, well-meaning is just trying to get us. Okay. But we're meant to move to stage four. And so we're in stage three.

So think about what happens, but this is scary. So we keep sabotaging ourselves, right? Because we're like, oh, but I don't want to outgrow this person. And they're so far, they're not changing, but we like it up here.

So then we get frustrated and we say, well, why can't they do this? Cause they're not ready. So eventually if we do the healing and they have no intention of healing, you get this where you're like, yeah, okay. Yeah.

Now best case scenario. And this is why we have a program for the betrayer as well. The betrayed moves to stage four and five. The betrayer says, I better step up my game to meet the strength of that woman.

They do it too. This is a 2. 0 relationship up here. Right.

See the difference. Beautiful. Amazing. Yeah.

Which by the way, you guys just heard, they have programs for the betrayed and the betrayer. And yeah, I mean, we're going to talk about that too, but amazing. Yeah. So that, and that's why most people live and get stuck in stage three.

And then what you wind up doing is you're suppressing and medicating your symptoms. You're not happy. Nothing's really changing life. Life kind of stinks, but you don't know about stage four and stage five.

And that's why. So it, and stage three gets worse, but I'll get jetty because it feels so bad, but you don't know there's anywhere else to go. Here's where you start numbing, avoiding distracting. So here's where you run to the, the doctor puts you, puts you on a mood stabilizer or anti-anxiety medication.

Here's where you start drinking, emotionally eating. So think about it. You do it for a day, a week, a month. Now it's a habit a year.

20 years. I can see someone 20 years later and say that emotional eating you're doing or that drinking or, you know, whatever. Do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they look at me like I'm crazy.

They would say it happened 20 years ago. All they did was put themselves in stage three. That makes sense. Makes perfect sense.

Yeah. I mean, as you know, you and I've talked about it. I'm like, Ooh, yep. I thought I was good to go.

I still, I still have more healing to do from things that happened years ago as well. It's crazy. Well, well, and, and, you know, think about it and just, and I want to get to stage four and five, but look at my example. Here I was betrayed by my family.

I thought I did everything I needed to do to heal. And it happened again. This time it was my husband. Now for me to enroll in a PhD program, I had never done anything remotely like that at all, like anything for myself and especially to that capacity, but it changed my life.

You see? And healing is always a choice. Whether you heal yourself. That's what I do with my family because they were stuck here and I was doing this, right?

Or if the situation lends itself, if you're willing, if you want to, you build something from the ground up new with the person who hurt you. And that's what I do with my husband. So as two totally transformed people, we married each other again. You did marry each other again.

That was another question I had. I see your ring. So I'm like, did you marry him again? Or is this someone new?

So you married him again. And you know what it is? I see so many people. People are so afraid of the death and destruction of the old.

That's the only way you birth the new, the only way. And, and you actually, there were even three groups in the study who did not heal one. This was the group that they had their story. They were sticking with it.

They were deeply stuck in stage three and that was just the way it is. But they can feel like it's empowering, right? Like talking about their story, like, oh, this happened to me, even though it's keeping them stuck. It's yeah.

They love being that victim. There's tons of people that stay in there. Exactly. There's some validation.

Yeah. I had a really powerful story. Everybody I trusted betrayed me, right. I would have gotten a lot of sympathy, but my story now was so much better, you know?

So my gosh. Yeah. I mean, look at your story. Now we're going to keep talking about your story now and the lives that you're hitting.

Amazing. Okay. So the second group that didn't heal, this was the group that was numbing, avoiding distracting. It may have made the day a bit easier, not without a price.

The third group, this was the group where the betrayer had very little consequence. So whether it was out of financial fear, not wanting to break up a family, religious reasons. That was a big one. Just fear of the unknown.

This is where I saw people, they just tried to turn the other cheek, look the other way, try to get over it without actually doing the healing. I saw two things. Number one, a further deterioration of the relationship. And number two, this group was the most physically sick.

They had the most. It's going to manifest, right? It's like your body. Your body is still holding onto all that trauma.

It just turns into disease. Exactly. You don't figure it out. They were so afraid of that death and destruction of the old, but like I said, that's the only way you birth that new one.

Like after, you know, my husband's betrayal, that was it. I was like, really? I wasn't counting on this. This stinks.

Okay. Here I am. I'm just, it was all about, it was all about the kids. I had all these dogs, you know, my business and I was like, that was it.

I, you know, I had. I had no intention, no intention of rebuilding anything because integrity is my highest value and I'm a highly sensitive empath. You do something like something like betrayal to someone like that. It's horrible.

It is. Yeah. Can I give you, can I take you through stages four and five? Of course.

Yeah. Of course. That's why we have you here. So anyway, if you are willing to let go of the small self benefits, grieve more in the loss, a bunch of things you need to do.

You move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where you acknowledge I can't undo what happened, but I control what I do with it right there in that decision. You're turning down the stress response.

You're not healing just yet, but you stopped the massive damage you were picking up in stages two and stage three. Stage four feels like if you've ever moved, if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo, whatever, all your stuff is in there. It's not quite cozy. If you're like, okay, we got this.

We can do this. Stage four feels like that. But think about it. If you were to move, you don't take everything with you.

You don't take the things that don't represent who you want to be in this new space. And what I found was there's this one place moving from stage three to stage four. If your friends weren't there for you, you're done with them. That lame support group, you're done.

The betrayer who's not changing. You're done. You see? It feels really liberating.

I mean, just you even saying it, it feels really good. Yeah. It's such a... It feels like you're not supposed to have a favorite kid.

I have a favorite stage and it actually is stage four because it's so... It really is because it's so forward moving. This is... We've heard of the hero's journey.

Here's where someone realizes, wait a second, I can use this trauma for my transformation. I've been through the worst of it already. Now what can I do with this as trauma well served? So stage four is when you feel that.

You know that. And now it's very forward moving. Like what can I do? Who should I become?

What's available to me? When you've settled into this new place, you've made it kind of mentally home. You move into the fifth most beautiful stage and this is healing, rebirth, and a new worldview. The body starts to heal, self-love, self-care, eating well, exercising.

You didn't have the bandwidth for that. Now you do. The mind is healing. You're making all kinds of new rules and new boundaries and you have a new worldview based on everything you see so clearly now.

In the four legs of the table, in the beginning, it was all about physical and mental. By this point, we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages. I love the five stages.

It's interesting as you're going through them, I'm like, hmm, check this. I think I'm a little stuck over here, like, you know, but Kate, so can we also talk about the fact that, yeah, betrayal is betrayal. So whether it's at work or whether it's anywhere else. So that people can resonate with what you're saying and kind of check themselves, like depending on who it is, you know, family has been, that seems really closely connected.

Like it's, but other things can still hurt. You can still stay stuck. Oh, of course we have, you know, it's interesting because we just started very recently. We have a new division of the company, which is PBT corporate, because we had so many people coming into the PBT Institute saying, I'm going to lose my job.

I can't hold it together. I don't trust anybody. I don't feel safe. I'm keeping myself at a distance and I have no energy and I feel like garbage.

And so we're like, okay, let's just help them at the, at the, the company level. So what's happening outside of the office is greatly impacting what's going on in the office, but that's not to say you're not having workplace betrayals too. You know, originally when I was doing the study, I thought, okay, let me study the, the betrayals of a family member, partner, or friend. I actually had to drop the.

The friend part, because while friends will infuriate you make you so angry, no one breaks you whenever broken bent, like a family member or a partner, those are the ones that get us the most. Yeah. And it affects everything, affects every area of your life if you don't figure it out. Right.

Yeah. And you know, until and unless you heal it, you, it will follow you around in, in every, uh, like here. For example, in health and work and relationships, like I'll see an unhealed betrayal in relationships in one of two ways. The first is a repeat betrayal.

The faces change, but it's the same thing. We go from partner to partner, partner, friend, friend, friend, boss, boss, boss. People say, what the heck is it? Me?

Yes, it is not in that. It's your fault in that it's your opportunity. There is a profound lesson waiting to be learned. Maybe the lesson is you are lovable, worthy, and deserving.

You need new boundaries, whatever it is until, and unless you get that, you're going to have opportunities that look like people to teach you. So that's why that's why it's happening. Right. How did it pause with that for a minute?

Yeah. The other, the other thing we do is if, if we don't have the repeat patrols, we'll put the big wall up. We're like, Nope. Been there, done that.

No, one's getting near me again. Okay. What are we supposed to do now? We're so confused.

That connecting with the broken. We're so confused. When we come in. We're so confused.

When we're in a place of strength and we've been. We've been broken, right? We're so, we've been broken from a place of strength. And it's not, it's fear.

We were so heartbroken and we're so afraid that it'll happen again that we would rather keep everyone at a distance than risk that level of vulnerability again. That's an unhealed betrayal. Right. It's actually really sad though.

Yeah. It's an unhealed betrayal. It's really sad because totally that deep love and what we can experience when we let vulnerability piece back into our lives is so amazing. But because of fear, you block it out.

And not even that, and here, everyone's going to get angry at me. And that's a good thing. Cause I want you to be motivated to do something different. If, if you're angry, like if you're keeping everyone at a distance, look at the power you've given that person who betrayed you.

Right. Not only, not only are you letting them give you all these symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome, right. Because, uh, because it's left unhealed now on, on top of that, you're keeping that love, that intimacy, that connection away. Look at the power you've given that person.

Right. Yeah. You know, we see it. Yeah.

We see it in health too. People go to the most well-meaning doctors, coaches, healers, therapists to manage a some kind of stress related issue. And at the root of it's an unhealed betrayal. Like for example, you heard me say, you know, just to pull one of the stats, 45% of everyone betrayed has a gut issue.

You can go to the most amazing digestive experts on the planet. I'm friends with a lot of them, right. They can give you a beautiful protocol, but if you don't get to that unhealed betrayal at the root of it, how much healing can you really do? You see, like, for example, still there outside your body.

We have a woman in our community. She's in her mid eighties and she had a digestive issue for over 70 years from a family betrayal two weeks in when she got this, she healed from a 70 year digestive issue. That's what happens. Yeah.

Amazing. And work too, right? Think about it. If you don't trust, if this is unhealed, the person you trusted the most proved untrustworthy.

Now you don't trust yourself. How do you trust in anything or anyone? So how do you trust that boss, that coworker, that collaborative partner? You see, it shows up everywhere.

It becomes impossible. It just can be life crippling. Yeah. And that's why when you move through the stages, you heal from all of it.

Which is incredible. That's, and that was what I want to ask next is as you had these discoveries, when you're back in school, getting a PhD from, you know, your story. So how long did it take you once you had that awakening? You know, you kicked the husband out.

You're like, see you later. You go down this journey. What did the rest of your life look like? Let's talk about what's happened since.

It's bananas. I mean, the discoveries showed up in 2018 by 2019. I was like, so the first thing I did was I put it into a program and that blew up. I'm like, how do you keep these five stages to yourself?

Right. So that took off. And then everyone wanted to work with me. And I was like, Oh, how do I leverage myself?

I created our certification program. A lot of the reason also was because, all these therapists and, and, you know, they're keeping people stuck because you're unpacking and you're unpacking and you're unpacking and you're no closer to stage four than the last 10 years you've been going to the same therapist. Right. So I wanted, you know, this certification so people can move through the stages.

And then it hit me. I was like, well, I did the study. I know what works, what would happen if I put everything that works under one roof and that's the PBT Institute. And then the books and the TEDx talks and PBT corporate and our certification programs.

And we have two different kinds. Yeah. All since then. So it all, I mean, it's been the last number of years that things just totally changed.

Yeah. And a rebuild program for the betrayer. I mean, and that was upon request, people kept asking, kept asking, do you have anything for the betrayer? And it was interesting because at first I thought, will I be able to do this?

Will I be judgmental or critical or, or, you know, and, and it turns out it's one of my, one of my most important, one of my most important, one of my most important favorite group talks I have within the community. Once a month, they meet with me, they meet with our coaches and they have their own programs, but they meet with me and, you know, there's no shaming or blaming, but these are people who realize the damage they've caused. And I give them the playbook. I'm like, say this, do this.

Don't ever say that. Don't ever do that. And even sometimes when they're like coming up with an excuse or something, I'm like, nope, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, I'm, I'm hard on them.

Uh, and they're, and they're, they're so grateful. They, they get it. This is a precious opportunity they've been given to, uh, to do it right. And they take it very seriously.

I mean, it's really admirable that you went through what you went through, right? You said, I've got to change. I got to figure this out. I got to heal.

So now you create, you know, you went down that path, these steps unfolded, which I'm, I believe that they were inspired, right? Like you were meant to do big things and you're doing them and you moved through that. And trusted yourself as you know, you had to trust yourself in order to keep going. So, and maybe this, I don't know, like maybe you don't like talking about this, but I'm going to ask you anyway.

Yeah. So how many lives do you think you have been able to touch now with everything you've created because you moved through all of those stages and you healed yourself and realized you wanted to do something more? Oh, I have no idea. I mean, I have, I really have no idea.

And it's, it's, it's so shocking to me when I'll get, you know, an email or a message from someone who said, you know, I saw, I listened to your podcast or I read your book or I saw your TEDx talk and it changed my life. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't even know who you are. You know, so it's, it's, it's, and then all my coaches and all the, the, the people we've certified that are doing their own beautiful work. So I have no idea, but I'm pretty spiritual.

And this is one of the things that showed up in the study too. We, we, some people abandoned their religion because they felt like they were going to die. And I'm like, well, I'm going to die. It wasn't supporting them.

Some moved towards the spiritual side of their religion. Some people weren't really doing anything, became spiritual. And that was me too. I met with a spiritual counselor coach intuitive because you lose, you know, you don't trust in anything, right?

So you're like, okay, maybe I could trust in something bigger other than me. And I remember walking into her appointment before I even sat down, she just starts laughing. Like, why are you laughing? She's like, oh, how you two plan this.

She didn't know anything. I'm like, what, what, what? She said, oh yeah. What are you talking about?

And she said he needed something so catastrophic to crash and burn. So he could be the husband, father, friend he's supposed to be. And you, you needed something so big and so painful. So you can heal and teach from this deep place of knowing you're going to have, you know, this Institute and this big following around betrayal and all these books.

And I'm like, you're crazy. Wow. I don't think she was crazy. I think she knew exactly what was going to happen, which is incredible.

And that's another thing that I want to tell anyone that's listening is Dr. Silva. She, she healed herself and she trusted in herself enough to create something so incredible that it's been able to touch thousands of people's lives. And she's been able to inspire other people.

And on our podcast, I love bringing people on to show you what is possible for you. If you have that, like burning inside you, if you're like, ah, there's more, there's something missing in my life. Cause I know so many of us have that. And I'm like, well, I don't know.

I don't know. I don't have that, you know, that little nudge and we don't listen. I want you to listen because I want you to see people like her. She's incredible.

She's inspired so many, and she's been able to be like a healer to how many people who then can now thrive. I mean, think about even the coaches, like your ripple effect is going to keep going and going and going because you took that action. And because you decided to rise above the trauma. And so I, I want anyone who's listening, who is experiencing trauma or thinks that maybe something's not healed completely, something's off, or, you know, you're meant for bigger, better things, take action, go for it, do it.

Because that is like, you just don't know, you don't know who you're going to be able to touch. You don't know what is in store for you when you live big. And when you decide to like, just decide to have that thriving life and that, I mean, you're an example of that. And so I like applaud you and, and just want to, I want to say thank you for all the work that you're doing.

It's incredible. Thank you. And I'll, uh, can I add something to that? And thank you.

There are two images that I picture if I have a good idea, but I'm on the fence about it because I'm unsure. I'm insecure. I'm I don't have what it takes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I picture two things.

One is I picture my idea now in the thought bubble and someone looks like, Ooh, that's a good idea. They may take it. How does that feel? And if that one doesn't work, I picture, I have, I have four kids and now we have two additions.

It's amazing. Our family is growing with the, you know, a wedding and a, and a girlfriend. And so it's, it's so fun, but I picture sitting my kids down and saying, nah, you know, I'm not doing it. And they're like, what do you mean?

I'm like, it was too hard. They're like, what? Is that all you have mom? That that's it.

And, and if one doesn't get me, the other one does. Yeah. Awesome. Incredible.

Okay. So as we close, we've talked about your Institute. We've talked about your books, but will you just tell everyone the names of these books? It's nice to get ahold of you and just be able to consume more of your content.

Yeah. Thank you. Everything is at the PBT as in post betrayal transformation, the PBT institute. com.

You can also learn about national forgiveness day there too. We didn't even talk about that. We were going to, she has a day, you know, all the national days she's created a day that we now celebrate as a nation. Let's just tell them really quick.

And then we'll, we'll wrap up. Yeah. It's it's every September 1st. And this is a day to forgive yourself, others and experience because forgiveness heals.

But when you do it for the right reason, it's beautiful. Do it for the wrong reason. It backfires every time. So we decided let's just create a whole day.

So it's a September 1st, September 1st. Okay. September 1st, forgiveness day. And she's created so beautiful.

Thank you so much for being on the podcast. And we will have her information underneath so that you guys can click and find it easily. And thank you for, being here and tuning in, and we will be back on another episode. Thanks again.

Hey, if you enjoyed listening to this podcast, you've got to come check out my signature program, Thrive Her Academy. This is where we do real coaching and inner work transformation. I teach you how to apply the strategies and mindset tools we talk about here on the podcast so you can create that life and business that you love. For more information, go to www.

amysanders. co forward slash services. Again, that is amysanders. co forward slash services.