Learning To Take The Lead

The first time I'd ever really made a decision that was entirely about what I wanted, what I needed, and what I felt that had nothing to do with pleasing somebody else or somebody else's expectations of what my life is supposed to look like or any of that. It really, yeah, and it set me free. You love. Hello, everybody.

Welcome back to the Thrive Her podcast. I'm your host, Amy Sanders, and today we have a special guest. I love it when I have special guests because they are brilliant and I get to just learn from them and you guys get to learn from them. All of it is just awesome.

So Carol is with us today. Carol and I were part of the Women Thrive Summit. And we've had the opportunity to be together on calls for months now. And what I love is that I get to every single Wednesday, I tune in to this group where all of us just get to talk and essentially coach each other and help each other and support each other.

And it is incredible because even though we're all in our own little locations from around the world, we get to be with women that are vibing the way we want to vibe. And it's been such a unique, awesome experience. And so. So that is who I'm bringing on to the podcast today.

So Carol is a podcast host. She owns her own podcast called She Takes the Lead. She has a very interesting career, which I'm going to let her tell you about. She has been around the block 500 times, I swear.

She's done a lot of things. And she also, she's a motivational speaker. She helps coach women through transitions. And that can look different depending on what kind of transition you're facing.

I love that. She has. She has decided like she learned to how to and decided to take her own power back and her life completely changed completely. And she's going to talk about it.

And so, Carol, you're all of the things are interesting from your childhood, which we're going to talk about to the career paths you chose to also becoming a single mom by choice. Like she decided that this is what she wanted to do. And I'm going to let you tell it all because, of course. You're going to tell it the best way possible.

So welcome to the podcast. Tell us more about you. So excited you're here. Thank you.

Hi, Amy. How are you? I'm great. It's always great to record with amazing people.

I love this. No, I'm excited. I'm excited for the conversation. And yes, I love I'm going to steal that.

I have been around the block about 500 times. I think that's probably that's a statistic at this point, maybe. Yes, but you have a lot that you can share. And I love that because.

People, this podcast is all about showing people what's possible, showing you that you can. And you are someone who has done that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll tell you, I stayed open, which has probably been my biggest gift the whole time.

But you have to. I started I was born. I'm born and raised in New York. And I was a creative kid as a singer.

And I did it professionally. I went to high school for LaGuardia, which is like the fame high school. And danced on tables. And we didn't really dance on tables, but we sung and we'd get in trouble if we danced.

I did big things like you're like living the New York life, doing the New York things that most people dream about. Now, I it's it can be deceiving. The statement of the Instagram of all the things. But yeah, I started as a as a singer and an actor.

And I was a late bloomer. I'm neurodiverse. I'm dyslexic and actually found out about six months ago that I'm also ADHD, which I think is. Somewhat perimenopause and somewhat.

I just didn't know it, but it explains a lot. Can we just pause and say she calls herself neuro diverse. Double neurodiverse. Double neuro.

Yeah, I just like that. I like the way that you put that. Okay. Thank you.

I didn't point it, but I do steal it. Okay. Keep going. So I grew up in New York.

I grew up my both. My parents were in television. It was very nepotism based in that way. They both.

They came from my mother's from Birmingham, Alabama. My dad's from the South Bronx and then Connecticut. They met here and in the seventies, New York was not what it is now is dangerous. And people thought they were crazy to raise a child in that era.

It's very different than it is now. But I, I was a creative kid and I'm dyslexic. So I was, that was what I had. I, I didn't feel very bright or smart and I was heavy and I was teased a lot.

Frankly, bullied is really what it was. But at the, we did. That was not what we called it back then. And over time that sort of launched me into people pleasing territory in every possible way.

And if I made sure that everybody was okay, if everybody was talking about themselves, if everybody was focused on themselves, then nobody would be focused or tease me or I wouldn't disrupt the thing. And I knew that if I kept people happy, then they would like me, they would love me. And it continued. And you know, I lived this creative life, which I love.

Don't get me wrong. I'm still creative. I, I love my life, but also had a lot of pain that I actually felt very crazy a lot. Like I, it was not expressed and often as a young person felt, yeah, what's wrong with me?

I'm feeling so much and I'm also, I have depression and anxiety and I'm a big believer in doing what you have to do. I see a therapist, I take medication. I'm very much, I'm a big believer in it. I didn't know any of that at the time.

I'm a big, and I really like want it to be talked about. I think it needs to get more into the conversation. But anyway, yeah, I met my boyfriend when we worked together. I then became a TV producer, went behind the camera and became a TV producer for ABC news.

Worked in news emergencies. So like nine 11, a big high stress. I was very good at stressful situations. I am very good in an emergency.

I'm still good in an emergency. And part of that is definitely the. Neurodiversity. It really focuses me in, but part of it is that I am so attuned with what other people need than in an emergency.

I can see it very clearly, very quickly. Yeah. And over time I had the life that I was on the road to have, and it was, I had the husband and then, and I had my career and I, we had pursued this creative life and had a little dog and we were gonna at some point start to have a family. And, we started to try and have a family and my marriage was falling apart.

Also, while this was happening and bringing in a kid is always the best way to solve a marriage. That means that you have a kid, which means everything's fine. Yeah. It makes it much, much better and it wasn't working.

I was trying to get pregnant. It wasn't working. And I had gone to the doctor and he said, nothing was, everything seemed fine. Fertility is not really explored that much.

And at that point, certainly wasn't. And our marriage got worse and he kept telling me reasons why it wasn't working. And I kept telling him reasons why and bending why. Yeah.

It should work and it could work if only we did that. And finally he said, and I don't think I want children. And I said, okay. And he said, okay, what?

And I said, okay, you can go and everything changed. Everything changed. And it wasn't like some huge revelation of, okay, you can go, ah, I now I'm woman. Hear me roar.

It was like the first time I'd ever really made a decision that was entirely about what I wanted, what I needed and what I felt not that had nothing to do with pleasing somebody else or somebody else's expectations of what my life is supposed to look like or any of that. It really, yeah. And it set me free. So how did that feel though?

When you said that? Cause it seemed, it sounds like correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like that's just what came out of you. Like you were like, okay, then go. Cause that was like a, this definitely is something that I know that I want.

So how did that feel? By just letting that come out of you and saying that it what's funny, it didn't feel strong at the time. Now I understand that it was, it just felt pure. There's no, it just felt pure.

And I don't want to like make it sound kind of cheesy or hokey or something, but the truth is that it was the truest thing I'd ever said, you know, it was the truest thing that I ever said. And it just came out, there was no forethought in it and it felt, I think it felt freeing, you know, like there were so many other things going and marriage was ending. We'd been together for 14 years, like a real decision, but the, I am very close with my family. Oh, it's we're a small little family, but I'm very, we're very close.

My, I have friends that are family in my life. Like I'm an only child, like that relationship, that fan is one of my core values ultimately is family and for better or worse. It's not always convenient to have that as your value either. It's not always.

That's not always, it, it creates some difficulties sometimes personally and externally, like with family members, but it just was true. And I, yeah, it ultimately just got me through the understanding that the marriage was over. So I guess that's, it was true. That's really the word I would say.

If you don't want kids and I do, this doesn't work anymore. It's done. Yeah. It's just done.

We just don't need to try anymore. It's just done, which is amazing. It's like your truth came out. Despite myself.

Yeah. Okay. All right. When you're like, you're going through all this, the steps of, of mourning because this relationship is gone.

We never really spoke again. It was really like, it was like somebody died ultimately without dying. It was like somebody left by choice and just didn't, he, he wanted to do over, which is fine. It doesn't, I wish him well and everything else.

It wasn't now I wish him well. There were feelings. There were a lot of feelings, but it was really more just feeling in inadequate. And I think that was the thing.

It was like, I wasn't getting pregnant. I was not, I was all of a sudden. The life that I had created, that I had built that had amazing cocktail party stories. And that was really interesting and successful on the outside.

I had won an Emmy and a Peabody for covering 9-11 and Y2K. Like I had done like accomplished things. I, like I said, went to fancy high school was performed, have done a lot of. It sounds like the dream sounds a woman that's achieving that's, that's the dream.

Like you have done it. And you also had a relationship. And I'll like all those things, but that's what people think is the American dream success. Exactly.

And the thing about it is that I put myself through all of these things without really. Most of the time when I, one of the things that I always think is interesting. When I meet people who come to New York, it's different when you grow up here, this is my home. And I won't know if I had the desire enough to come here.

This is my home and I'm a city girl because it's my home, but I have a lot of friends who have come here. They have left their homes. They have. They have left the safety of their environment.

Sometimes not so safe, but the truth is they've left what they know to instinctively come to a place that is very hard to live. It's expensive. It's scary. There's a lot of different here.

And if you're not open to those things, if those things don't drive you, it's you either love it here or you're you don't. And I didn't, I just grew up here. So it's what I know. All of those things that.

I mentioned are one of the things that I are, the things I love about it. And at this point, if I didn't want to be here, I had, I would have left, but the truth is I was living this heart successful, but it's a hard life to pursue. It's tiring. You're doing a lot and didn't really, it wasn't fully what I wanted to do.

It was really the expectation that I thought I should do because my mother was in the business at some point. I thought. These were the. Things that were, these were the things I was supposed to be doing.

And then I was supporting my ex-husband to, and then I was supporting my ex-husband. He was the, my priority. He was the talented one in my mind, he was the one that could do all of that. He, it was in my mind.

I was like, I was secondary. I was like this. I was second to what he was doing and whether he was sending me that or not. There's a, this is what was, what I was taking.

And this was the role. I was. Playing a lot of women do play that role. They do.

They really do. They do it. Not they just, it's what's acceptable. Right.

And there you are, whether you're working or not, like you were working outside the home, but there's women who are working inside the home. Right. But they're just like, that's because I'm supposed to support him. I'm supposed to be this wife.

I'm supposed to be this mom. I'm supposed to be this, like all of the supposed tos. And so we just do it thinking that this is what's normal, but I'm like, guess what? It might look normal because culturally it's accepted.

Yeah, but if it's feeling bad, you don't feel like this is working for you, then you need to listen to that, which you did. Yeah. Then yes. Then I went, but then you really did.

I really did go home. So I dated half of Manhattan. I, I was working at good morning America and you get to work at midnight when on weekend even, and you get to work midnight and I was going on dates and then literally getting dropped off at 66th street where the studio was. One of the studios was, and, and nothing was like my entire life that I had built that looked really fancy was not supporting anything.

I was now single. I wanted a family. It was not, it was not lucrative the way it needed to be. It was not consistent or stable.

There was nothing that was the life I had built was completely around a unit and not around me the way I needed to separate from him. And I'm not saying as a single mom, I'm. Definitely sensitive to the idea of, of course you can do these things because you don't have to deal with somebody else. Now, first of all, I have a six-year-old and I have two octogenarian parents that I'm very involved in making sure that they're well, you are taking care of people.

Sure. But it's not about that. It's what we've decided, right? It's like, we've decided to support this other person.

There's not necessarily no harm in it. And yeah, there's, it's another person, but it's a decision when you're putting yourself in a less than position. Then. Yeah.

It's like, you are putting yourself in a less than position and I also love that you said, I have this, like from the outside looking in, you're working at good morning, America, what that sounds amazing, right? You're like, this sounds incredible yet. This is what this actually looks like. And this wasn't supporting your values.

It works for other people. It's a cool. There's a lot of things. There's a lot of things that work for other people, but that is the, and that was what I realized finally was really ultimately as I started exploring, once you make a decision that is like a moment of truth decision, like I had all of a sudden the world opens up and you're like, oh, this is what a decision, this is what this feels like.

Oh, I want to do this more. And now I know how, when I ran a marathon for no reason, just because I wanted to, like I said, dated half of Manhattan with no judgment. I was like, I want to see. What men are like, I'd never even been with anybody other than that, my ex-husband.

And I was like, I'm not saying sex. I'm just saying I wanted to like meet people and be open to it. And that openness, that decision to, and when I say decision, like a decision is not a decision until it's turned into action. And that was really what it was.

It wasn't just like my mental decision to do it. It was the action of, okay, I'm going to go out and I'm going to date. I'm going to go out and I'm going to see what else is out there for my career. Like what else?

What else is there? So then I ended up, yeah, I ended up starting to pursue different things. I was like, because I was like, my life is not being supported in the way that I needed to. I started singing more jazz and I was singing already and I always sang, but I started like pushing to see if I wanted to really push through singing as a jazz singer.

There's a lot of pieces. There's a lot of nuance to it of trying things that I. You're discovering it, right? Like you're discovering what you like.

Yes. And it's, it's funny because. Once you get exercise, the muscle, what we were talking about having dinner and like deciding I'm going to have dinner and it's going to be what I want for dinner. It sounds so small, but every time you do that, you're building a muscle and that muscle gets stronger and stronger because the opposite is true.

Every time you say, what do you want for dinner? You're building that muscle where you're giving away that decision. And it's a small decision, but small decisions, as we know, small things, small movements turn into big movements for better. Or worse, and I just started picking better and also I was on the floor.

So I was just like my life had crumbled basically when he left and I was just like, okay, I don't know what I'm doing anymore. I'm not, I'm working so hard to keep on this track. And it, life doesn't want me to be on that track. So, all right.

What track does it want me to be on? And that's it, it opens at that point when you start to see, oh, there's an opportunity there. Oh, what does that look like? And I, I made some mistakes.

I was, I went and tried event planning. I spent two years trying to become an, a private event planner and found out, I was like, this is not what I wanted. I got like an amazing job with the guy who does the Met and, and I was like. But again, you're like, oh, wait, I don't like that.

That seemed great. And it's actually a no. And I kept looking at these sexy things. I kept looking at these things that seemed really sexy.

To me, that's what makes you happy. And finally, I was like, these things are not this, it's not about the, what you do. It's about the feeling you get of what you do. And then I, when I got lucky in a lot of ways and ended up working at a hedge fund, big hedge fund, I barely, I'm actually amazing at budgeting.

I have spatial relationship, like nobody's business and I can build a multimillion dollar budget amazingly, but I almost didn't graduate high school. Cause I didn't pass math. I almost wasn't going to pass math. It was the, the.

The dynamic of this creative person that then goes into this financial sector of environment. It didn't make any sense, but it makes sense to me because when I got there, when I got to this hedge fund and it's a hedge fund, it's I'm in New York. I'm not going to be, it's not, that's not the opportunity for everybody. I'm not saying that's yeah.

But I walked in there understanding. I have something to give this. I don't know what it is. And for a while it was just like answering the phone.

And like trying to learn as much as I possibly could and being smart and trying to listen and observe and study and spend time and opening my mouth and saying what I want. Right. And saying, I, there is something here. I don't know what it is.

I don't know what I can do in here, but I want to know. And I have a feeling that same feeling. That's that truth feeling of that moment. Right.

Saying. I there's a place for me here and I know there is, and I'm going to stick around to find out what it is. And I told my boss that, and he was fantastic and taught me finance when I wasn't busy. I studied finance.

I took finance classes and every time an opportunity came up, I grabbed it. And over time it was like, it's a, they call it a pivot. That's what it's called is you're pivoting your career. Basically you're taking the skill sets from previous careers or previous lives.

And you're finding where they exist in these new environments, but you're looking for the feeling of it. I can do things that I don't necessarily even like to do, but that's not, so that's not all of this was frankly by accident. It was just like, I was like flailing and trying to find my way. And I'd spent my twenties as a married woman doing a different life.

So there was a lot of just trial and error, but the truth is that at some point. It became very intentional. And I started really saying, okay, I want to be an executive in this world. I have a degree in drama.

Like, this is not how this works. What can I do to serve this company? Yeah. And I think that's where it's at.

You were listening to yourself while also saying, what can I do to serve this company? What can I do? To serve myself? What can I do to serve my kids?

What can I do to serve my community? What, when you come up, it doesn't matter what your degree is from. It doesn't matter what your background is. It's like when you're showing up in that space, doors will open up for you.

Yeah, they do. Energetically they do. And frankly, just physically they do when people, the one thing that people want to hear is what can I do for you? If you go into any professional environment and really any.

Personal environment. And I don't mean from a people pleasing place. I mean, from a, what can I do? You're on a mission, right?

A company is a mission. They have a, they have values. There's a value system. They have a culture, they have equity, they have inequity.

They like, it is its own little universe. And once you kind of start aligning and understanding, it's very human. It's the same with people. Ultimately it's the same with a family.

It's the same with relationships, but once you start understanding what the company needs. You start understanding what, and then you understand what you want and what you can do, like the, I mean, it is transferable skills, but ultimately it's really, it's more the, it's not like I'm a fast typer or something. Yes, I can do budgets and I can do Excel. I didn't really start, everything was, I mean, I was a TV producer, like I had done, I'd worked with sets and directors and producers, and now I'm working with real estate brokers.

Yeah. And it's not the same thing, but the inherent understanding as a producer is that you are trying to problem solve all the time. That's what it's about. It's problem solving and knowing what the problem is and how you can solve it.

Not necessarily the skills that you have acquired. Right. Physically. But yes.

But it's, it's what you can bring to the table. Exactly. And then actually doing it and the doing it is the part that. is a little scary and that's where the change comes in.

But the doing it is the part that gives you the change. And that's where the pivot really starts to fly. Yeah. So let's shift gears for a little bit.

We talked about business. So yeah. Yeah. The other side there.

So from there, you went to all these different careers, did all these different things. Yes. Husband leaves. Then you go down this whole road of fertility because you decide you want to be a mom.

Yes. Which you are a mom now. Yes. And then I'm just going to keep going because I know we have a lot of things stuck.

So then you go through that whole thing, which you want to hear about. Then you pivot into coaching as well. And now you're at home coaching, taking care of your parents, also a mom, family values. Yep.

I coach on what I did. I teach women, working women, generally. Working moms, how to intentionally and with joy, write their next chapter and live it without a crisis. That's the lie is that you think I had it, you had it.

You hit rock bottom to change, but change is very healthy. Our bodies over time, I think it's 30 days to build a habit. It's not that long to build a habit and we do need repetition to get there, but in order, but that doesn't mean we're supposed to be doing exactly the same, whether that's professionally or personally. What I coach on and what I talk about on my podcast as well.

And what I talk from my speaking is the power of understanding the pivot of not being, of being brave around changing and understanding that's actually what life is about. And the more we stick inside the structure of not changing or saying that we can't do it, or who are we to even talk about that? Like, you know, the thing that happens to me is I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, a lot. And in this narrow part of my universe in a lot of ways is there's a lot of women out that are like, my life's okay.

Like my life's pretty good. You know, it's, it's pretty good. I'm not miserable. I have a nice husband.

I have a nice job or I have a nice life at home. I have a nice kid. It's pretty good. But why do we have to have pretty good is not, you don't have to want more.

You don't have to be ashamed about wanting more. And that pretty good is not what you want on your headstone. And status quo. Yeah.

Like I look at status quo, I'm over status quo. Yeah. I'm like status quo is like snooze balls to me now. A lot of people do accept that, but they accept that because that's, what's normal.

They see society, they see their culture. They see like where they live, even in my world right now, like where I live, it's like their status quo and the majority of my friends are doing it. There's no harm in that. Yeah.

But are you? Living to your full potential. Are you truly happy with where you're at? The happy part is the thing that I think is.

Are you there? The meh being, making you happy. It may be fine, but is it making you happy? And if not, what do you need to tweak?

I'm not, I don't want people to throw out their entire life unless they want to, unless that's what's necessary. Right. It's not necessary. It's about, it's about living and doing the things that you want to do.

Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's a really good example of what it's like for people who are someone who's pretty launched and there's something you can do to get them motivated to move forward. I was, strangely, I was Googling the definition of people pleasing and something struck me as interesting that it's you're putting other people's needs in front of you while putting aside your own wellbeing. It's not putting other people.

So as a people, as a former people, I'm still a people pleasers. I call it recovering. You're always, right? covering.

It's not going away. Like that's just ingrained in me. And there's a part of me that likes that. I love, I'm a caretaker.

I like taking care of people. I actually, there's a piece of me that enjoys it, but not on behalf of my own wellbeing. I love the wellbeing. The difference is when you're self-betraying.

The difference is when it's like, and that's me too, is I love to serve other people. You love to serve other people. Right. And there's, and that's great.

I love to help other that there's no, that's not people pleasing. That's not because it's coming from a clean space, right? It's coming from your heart. Right.

And you're not looking for something validation, right? You're not seeking something externally to make yourself feel better either. Oh, they like me because I said, yes, whatever. What it is like you are saying yes, because you value them and you value yourself.

And this is a good thing to say yes to. Yeah. People pleasing is when essentially you're lying to either someone or yourself. That's how I look at it too.

Yeah. That's very true. And then when you're doing that, you're self-betraying, which means you're coming further away from self-trust and the further you came away from self-trust, the more unhappy you're going to be. Yeah.

If you can't, if you're constantly lying to yourself, then how are you supposed to be telling other people what you want or doing what you want to be able to make you happy? And that was the thing with having my baby. So I, I've just to tell your audience quickly. So in the process of all of this, like I said, I dated half of Manhattan.

I was. Wanted to have a baby. I wasn't meeting anybody that I felt like I wanted to have a baby with because I'd been married and divorce is hard. Even when you're happy with the marriage, didn't want to do it again.

And finally over time, I also knew that I felt like it was going to be hard. Like instinctively, I felt like it was going to be hard. I spent 12 years in some version of trying to have her. And then at 41, I started trying to have her and it took four years to get pregnant.

I did six rounds of IVF, four rounds of IUI. Countless. I literally changed everything in my house from the, the shower curtain, the material to all of our pots and pans, to my own behavior, to my own healing health process, to physic, changing my workout regime, changing my food, changing my product, everything. And, and it was a lot.

It's a hormonally, it's huge. It's a lot, but it's like, when you know what you want, when you're really attuned with that moment of what you want. It doesn't, it's just very clear. And I think that is true in not just having a baby.

And I ended up having her and I ended up having her with a donor with an egg donor and a sperm donor. And she's amazing. And I had her at 46 years old. I love that you didn't let's talk about that for a second.

I mean, let's talk about that for a second. I love that you say it took four years for her to be realized and like for her to come to fruition for her to be a human. Being right. It took four years of you trying, but you had, you knew what you wanted and you stayed the course and I had a vision of what I, what it was.

And you had a vision of what it was and you're like, okay, so you trusted the process that it would happen. Yeah. But a lot of times when we're going through this, a lot of times it doesn't happen on our timeline. Yeah.

And that's a good lesson. Yeah. It also doesn't look the way I was pursuing adoption while, while doing this round that I ended up having her because I had been, I had, I'd spent an inordinate amount of money into six figures to continue this. Cause also at that age, health insurance doesn't cover that.

And I had the, what was happening to my, everybody was very worried, like that I was taking, putting too much on my body and I just knew my body. And I was like, I think this is going to, this is okay. I'm not going to kill myself. I don't want to kill myself, but I also, at some point, was like, and again, this goes back to you try to stay on this road, but really this is the road is that my doctor at some point said to me, listen, he said, there's a big secret within this fertility world.

And that is that you see a lot of these famous people having babies at 50, but what they're not telling you is that they're using egg donors. They're not just using sperm donors. And some people are saying they froze their eggs and maybe that's true, but also at the time, certainly. There was the technology around freezing your eggs was very different because just up until then, if you froze an egg, it was an egg as a single cell and you freeze it.

And if there's a tiny little glitch in the freezing or the defrosting that it doesn't survive. If you freeze an embryo, it's a multi, it's like thousands of cells. So if it defrosts and one cell dies, it's not dead. It doesn't, it's not, it's not a viable cell.

It's not a viable embryo. So a lot of those women, there just was no truth around it. And this piece of the truth of it made me realize that it goes back to the feeling, the truth of what it looks like. Oh yes, I'm 50 and I'm carrying this beautiful baby that's mine in every way.

And my baby's mine. I used an egg donor and a sperm donor and a lot of health care. I used a sperm donor and a lot of health care. I used help from doctors and my baby is mine, but I needed help.

It just didn't look like I thought it would. And by the time I got there, I had, I was like the social worker for to adopt. I was 12 weeks pregnant when the social worker came to my house to do a home visit, because I was like, if this doesn't work, I was like, I'm going to go to adoption because no matter what I was going to be a mom. Yeah.

I love it. And that was, yeah. That was like your, this is it. Like for sure.

I'm going to be a mom. I love it. Hey, you've taught us a lot of things and we have to wrap up time. So couple questions for you.

First question would be, what would you tell her? Like your little nugget of wisdom, like everything that you've experienced, what would you tell her who is maybe a little scared to take the lead? What would you say to her? I love that question.

I would say get out of your comfort zone. The more you get out of your comfort zone, the more comfortable you become out of your comfort zone. Yeah. I love that.

Because that, that it's hard and it's scary, but do it in small doses, like walk around, walk to work in a different way. Do something that's just different enough from your usual that you get used to doing it differently. Because once you start doing it differently, the different is not, it's just different. It's not better.

It's not worse. It's just different. And that will help you start being able to make big, bold choices without the fear. Or let me rephrase that with the audit, the expectation that because you have the fear, it's going to be bad.

Yeah. I tell my clients and I always tell my, the listeners, the cave you fear holds the treasure you seek. Yeah. You have to go through the cave and sometimes it's dark and sometimes it's scary.

Yeah. And sometimes you don't know what's around the corner, but every time you do that, you gain a little more strength and trust in yourself and the treasure can be beautiful. It's ultimately like what's changed my life too. You also, I think that you also don't, it's not always, you don't always land where you're, where you want to land.

And that's also okay. Accidents need not be fatal. Like mistakes need not be fatal. They're just mistakes and you can turn around and find your way in another way.

It's the preciousness of it. It's the, I'll tell you with the, with your, I know you speak to a lot of entrepreneurs and the thing that I think is incredible with, from an entrepreneur perspective as well, is the preciousness of starting. Of when you make things too precious, anything, when you make the decisions or the outcome too precious, it hyper-focuses in a way that is not natural. And generally it, it starts to strip away the magic.

It starts to strip away all of the pieces because you're keeping it, you're keeping the blinders around it. When you allow it to vibrate, as you say, like when you allow it to, to expand and contract the way it needs to, it becomes something else that you can then go into. Yeah. I love that.

Okay. Last question is how do people find you? So it's not a hard question. I can answer that.

How do people find you? We will also have her in the show notes, but. I'm right here. Where's the best place?

Absolutely. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook at Carol Podell. You can go to my website, carolpodell. com.

I have a whole bunch of things that I have some free resources. You can go there and find all the things. And then you can also watch and listen to my podcast. She Takes the Lead, which you can get wherever you find, get your podcasts.

And on YouTube at She Takes the Lead podcast, we just started doing video. So you can see all the gorgeous faces of all of my work. And I love that. I love that.

You're doing awesome things. Everyone who's tuning in, just know that you can too, if you're not happy with where you're at, there's always something you could do to change. And Carol's a living example of that. So thank you so much for being on.

It's been an honor to have you. Thank you, Amy. It's really been a delight to talk to you. I just love what you're doing and your mission.

I think it's just incredible. I think it's highly necessary and we need more of you. Thank you. Likewise.

That's why we love you. Anyway. All right, guys, we will see you guys next week. AmySanders.

co forward slash services. Again, that is AmySanders. co forward slash services.